Curse

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Mar 23, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loveless Rage

/notsigned

The last thing we need is the price of zkeys dropping even more. Zkeys = cheaper = not as rare items = more economy slumpage.

Skill points for gold would be okay. Say a single skill point for 300g or so.

anet could adjust gold drop rate.

draxynnic · Mar 24, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonRogue

The problem i see with using SPs for Balth Faction unlocks is who would then ever buy skills from a trader? No, PVE unlocks by finding items, and by buying skills...PVP gets the unlocks from BF. I do not see the need to alter this set up. My whole point is just in the Zchest not being what it was intended for anymore with the whole selling of the keys. Barring the XTH, the PVP has a corner on the market to sell to the PVE. This is not a good balance imo. Kind of like when the HA had control on who had access to the UW and FOW...Why should one aspect of the game have control over another? Since the Zchest is no longer JUST a PVP reward, it made sense to me that PVE use their SPs for this as well, since the PVP uses their spare BF for them. And with the XTH screwing with even the PVP control of the keys, what does it matter now? Other than the fact that the keys have become an alternate source of trade, and no one wants this to be effected, there is no other rational excuse or logical reason for this not to happen. If the keys had no value and were locked to an account and only that account, no one would be even arguing this. Greed has been the only counter point. Now i also believe that since the keys are tradable, that this idea is also being shot down because no one wants PVE to get richer. But since the majority of the buyers are PVE who ACTUALLY use the chest, this is a moot point, IMO.

As for using SPs on shrines, tomes, or much else that the PVE uses, many do not ever use these or have need of them. For me anyway, i can do HM without the need of anything a shrine has to offer, and i already have every skill offered. So this would be of no help. ID kits, salvage kits and lockpicks i could see use in. However as i have stated once, i can already see endless threads about how town controling guilds no longer have markets for these items that are already reduced priced that are sold ingame by thier members. And consumables cost more in mats and gold than most people have to use up all their SPs. So what else is left to use them on? PVP got to use their spare BF on something, so isnt it logical that the PVE get to use their spare SPs on something that helps them out? So instead of asking for a nice little PVE chest where more Dev time is required to implement....why not use it for the broken Zchest that we already have in game? PVE is already all over it anyway.

If someone wants to go through the hassle of using their SPs to unlock skills and then acquire tomes so as not to have to go through a trader... who cares? I don't, and I really don't think anyone who's /notsigned either idea was thinking much of that possibility. Even at the more pessimistic prices for where zkeys might bottom out, your suggestion would still allow players to gain more gold than they would save by avoiding buying the skill at a trader - and that's assuming the price of nonelite tomes remains stable. And as for elite tomes... the price for THOSE is normally higher than for a capsig.

Regarding shrines and so on - I don't use them either. If I don't need to, and I usually don't, than there's no point spending valuable gold in order to get a boost I don't need. Allowing a virtually worthless resource like skill points to be used instead of gold, however, would, I think, make them a much more attractive option as something to pick up just for the fun of it when available because, hey, it's virtually free, right? The end result would be to make having favour become that much more interesting even to those people who aren't waiting for godrealm access, because instead of simply making available bonuses that generally aren't worth the price you pay, you can gain bonuses that are, to most intents and purposes, free.

And since the current form of god blessings really isn't that much of a gold sink at all, such a possibility could inject a little more fun into the game and provide a use for excess skill points without affecting the game economy at all. Despite what you think of their motives, the fact that there is a strong current of dislike for the idea of exchanging skill points for zkeys is something that ANet would have to consider regardless of how rational the reasoning behind it may or may not be.

Now, I personally wouldn't complain if I got to turn skill points into zkeys - even if it causes to price to tank all the way down to zero, I could still then use it as a vector to aim for tonics and rare skins such as the Draconic Aegis. But other people are, and given the choice, I'd much rather be able to do something with my skill points far in excess of my ability to afford to spend than nothing.

Junato · Mar 24, 2009, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Skill points for Zkeys? Ya and maybe an extra 1k with it...

Incandecree · Mar 24, 2009, 11:47 AM // 11:47

People keep saying that consumables are the answer to the excess skill points. Well you have to get the materials to create them. Feathers aren't exactly in abundance so you have to farm an area to get the consumables and thus creating more skill points.

I would be in favor of the 5-10 SPs per key and make them unable to be traded. I see no reason to not do this. It would still leave the market for those that trade Balth faction to Zkeys. They could sell them but possibly a much smaller market to buy those keys.

What about trading SPs for weapon skins or armor for chars? Make the weapons customized to the ACCOUNT. Make a system something like trading RPs for PVP skins except it would be trading SPs.

What about trading SPs for minis? 1000 SPs gets a unique mini, 5000 SPs get you another unique mini?

draxynnic · Mar 25, 2009, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incandecree

People keep saying that consumables are the answer to the excess skill points. Well you have to get the materials to create them. Feathers aren't exactly in abundance so you have to farm an area to get the consumables and thus creating more skill points.

I've been saying this all along. I suspect a lot of people have been replying to the OP and not reading, or at best skimming over, the rest of the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incandecree

What about trading SPs for weapon skins or armor for chars? Make the weapons customized to the ACCOUNT. Make a system something like trading RPs for PVP skins except it would be trading SPs.

What about trading SPs for minis? 1000 SPs gets a unique mini, 5000 SPs get you another unique mini?

Interesting ideas. I could see this leading to a trade in Stars of Transferance, though...

...and unless there's some facilitation for using skill points across an account, this is still going to have the problem of having to pay gold and materials to get Stars of Transferance crafted so you can concentrate them on one character.

Zanhaler · Mar 25, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

/notsigned

my ele alone has 1000+ skill pts and shes not my main farmer so... then again ziashen title is just to give pvers a emote without it looking REALLY pve. :P

DragonRogue · Mar 26, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanhaler

/notsigned

my ele alone has 1000+ skill pts and shes not my main farmer so... then again ziashen title is just to give pvers a emote without it looking REALLY pve. :P

Well if the idea of another 200 zkeys on your account, to do with as you please, isnt a good idea for you, who am i to care. If the PVE would rather spend all their hard earned gold on buying the keys from the PVPers instead of farming for them themselves, then there is nothing i can say about it. Remember this is a thread about what YOU WOULD LIKE to see ANET alter. Not whether they will or wont. So all the threads with other ideas are fine and dandy, but i feel many of you did so because these ideas were the compromise youd suffer thru, rather than what would really help you. Unless the PVErs we heard from have alternate sources of said keys, and also dont want to loose their profit margine with a broken system already hemorraging itself to death. So bandage it up and pray you can make it a few more months before it bleeds out. Mabye if the +50% that is PVE here had supported this idea it would make ANET think it was a good idea and change it toward this. But since now they know you will all gladly scrounge for any gold piece they toss you, i hope you enjoy your shrine blessings. Ive made every logical arguement i can about why one thing would be better than another, and why the others would still be of no help to veteran players, and how to keep this within the mechanic of the game and not ask for much new Dev time or items. But if i cant even sell this idea to those it would benefit, then i cant sell it to ANET. At least they know there is an interest in doing something with the spare SPs and that more consumables are NOT the answer. I no longer care what.

Scary · Mar 26, 2009, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanhaler

/notsigned

my ele alone has 1000+ skill pts and shes not my main farmer so... then again ziashen title is just to give pvers a emote without it looking REALLY pve. :P

As Zaishen isnt a PvE emote already...
Sure there are PvP getting Zaishen with there Balth points but its atleast a 50/50 between PvP and rich PvE players that buy the keys.

draxynnic · Mar 27, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

DragonRogue,

Your issue is that you seem to have a problem seeing things from the other person's perspective.

Consider why zkeys were introduced in the first place. Before then, there pretty much wasn't any reward for PvP that was applicable for PvE, except for the Heroes Ascent chest (which requires, you know, holding the Hall). This is fine for players who are purely PvP or PvE, but for players who played both, time spent playing PvP was essentially wasted time when it came to measuring progress to most PvE-related goals. The zchest and zkey gave a means to convert PvP success into a PvE-relevant reward.

So, consider the effect of your suggestion. An increase in the supply of zkeys is going to drop the price. Simple economics, and we've already started to see it with the price dropping from 5k to 4.4k over the past few months. At the most basic level, the effect of your suggestion would be to shift wealth from the PvP/PvE hybrid players and into the hands of the pure PvE players.

This is important, and worth repeating. You're asking ANet to take a measure that would benefit some players at the expense of others. It's not a simple picture of black and white where one option is beneficial to all but the super-rich that deserve to be taken down a peg or two as you seem to be trying to paint. Not everyone who happens to enjoy both styles is going to be the Scrooge with maxed out platinum and multiple stacks of ecto as you seem to be implying - some of those are just as likely to be trying to save for something nice that veteran players take for granted (their first set of elite armour, for instance) as the novice pure PvE-er.

(In fact, come to think on it, it's probably the super-rich - those that can afford to shoot for the zaishen title to begin with - that would actually benefit the most from your suggestion, as a drop in the price would mean they're cheaper for them to buy.)

Now, you're claiming that the PvPers are being greedy for protecting their source of income at your expense. However, they can - and, I believe, have - made the counter claim that you're just as greedy for wanting to add to your own wealth at their expense, which is at least as valid as your own claim. And they have the moral high ground of defending the status quo, and of the reward in question being one that was specifically made to promote their style of play. Are you going to claim that the player who likes both PvE and PvP should just put their heads down and go back to raptor farming to gain wealth just so you can be a little better off?

Of course, it may be that zkeys are in fact overpriced and that they can stand to have a further drop in price. That's not something I've done enough analysis on to judge - although it's possible that someone at ANet has - and maybe they'll decide that something like this is just the way to bring the price closer to where they want it. However, whether deserved or not, the important thing to realise here is, again, that the end result of your suggestion would be to hurt some players for the gain of others.

The way I look at it, getting anything at all for skill points would be a 'free lunch'. I'm primarily a PvE player, so from my perspective, zkeys would be great - but I'm mindful of the fact that there are plenty of players for which this would be, well, less great. Precedent has shown that Linsey is wary of anything that's going to pump a lot of gold into the economy overnight, so we're probably not going to see any direct conversion of skill points to gold. The ideal solution would probably be to produce some unique reward for having a lot of skill points, but that would require developer time, and, as I've said before, gaining anything for skill points is better than nothing.

A11Eur0 · Mar 27, 2009, 07:43 AM // 07:43

PvP players don't need wealth. PvE longevity at its very core is wealth-centric. There's only so much content to play through before all that's left is PvP or expensive stuff.

It won't hurt any players, but it will help players who aren't as business-savvy or who don't spend every waking hour in kamadan scoping deals. I'd say helping PvE PLAYERS achieve the same levels of "richness" (hardly, because the really high end stuff doesn't come from the Zchest) as the power traders through more than mere luck of the draw from the Shards of Orr end chest and an hour spent in Kamadan trying to get what it's worth out of someone actually going to use it instead of dealing with the underbids from the two-bit schysters trying to make a quick buck is a good thing. If pure PvE players can take their skill points and apply them to something a little more fruitful for them, that's a good thing, because whether you like it or not, PvE players take up the vast majority of Guild Wars playerbase. Make them happy,then the game survives, and GW2 goes through.

Incandecree · Mar 27, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

that DragonRogue's suggestion might actually help HIM to get the zaishen title? I for one would welcome that change. I don't want the "money" that comes from selling the zkeys. I want the title.

Someone said that getting anything for skill points is a free lunch. I would argue that getting anything for balth faction is also a free lunch. Why not allow the PvErs the ability to get something that is just as abundant as what the PvPers have. I would say that balth faction is more prevalent than skill points.

DragonRogue · Mar 27, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

snip

Drax, thanks for the personal attack. Why dont you go back and read what ALL my posts had to say instead of jumping me without thinking. I can see that other ideas have some merrit. But not all, and even those, not any to the verteran PVE. All i was doing was pointing out the flaws in those ideas from the perspective of the veteran player. No where did i personally attack any player for these ideas. So dont sit there and say i have a problem.

You keep assuming that the only reason i even suggested this idea was for the amount of money i would make farming skill points and selling keys, and it never seems to enter your head that maybe id like to actually just use the keys myself. Or that i would never want to play PVP because of all the crap attitudes ive encountered there when i did try and learn it. Or that i would rather earn them myself than have to pay ridiculous prices set by only one aspect of the community.

Fact...before the Ztitle, keys were only 2500g, after the title they shot up to 5k. Hmm seems like greed to me. And no where in any of my posts did i ever say a single thing about people who played both aspects. So where are you pulling all this shit from? All that i was saying was that since the PVP has the control on this market, they set the price, and the PVE wants this, so they are forced to pay it. Simple economics called monopoly.

My arguement was simple, Zchest and title were rewards to show PVP how much BF was acquired, and for the excess BF to be spent on once everything had been unlocked. (Same issue that the PVE has with spare skill points that cannot be spent.) This idea was broken the minute the first key sold to anyone. I seriously doubt it was ANETS intent to make a PVP version of the ecto so they could buy in the markets.

So with PVP AND PVE both using the chest and going for the title, is it logical to allow only one side to control the price of keys? Once upon a time PVP controled how PVE obtained the ecto and it was decided to return this control to the ones who actually used it. HA no longer dictates who and who cant enter UW or FOW. So since both aspects now use this chest, both should have viable ways of obtaining access to it. Period. It is obvious that the PVE would like nothing more than to have access to their own sorce of keys without being subjected to the BS of PVP, or we would not be seeing thousands of multiple accounts now opening in the XTH. So my idea does not hurt anyone, but puts a balance between the two again. Keys may still be sold between players of either aspect. And the arguement that the prices are dropping is already happening because of the extra accounts in the XTH, and will continue to do so reguardless if PVE has access to them farming or buying more accounts. However multiple accounts cannot be blamed soley on the PVE, as i know MANY PVP only who have more accounts soley for XTH purposes vs the PVE who use it mostly for storage. And this would take little effort on the part of the Devs. Unlike the other ideas that have been suggested.

Drax, since you felt the need to personally attack me, instead of my arguements heres a bit for you. YOU already have your "free lunch" with cons. The fact you are too broke to buy the mats to sell them is your problem. You have already stated that this didnt really work for you. As i stated your other arguements wouldnt work for others and why. So enjoy the "anything" you already have and shut up.

It has already been proven in many other threads that zkeys do not create money, but only shift money around the economy. So Lindsey could not really object to this idea as creating spare cash. Where as some of your ideas would actually break the money sinks designed in the game.

Since the only people who would be hurt by this idea are the ones who want to make a profit of XXX amount of cash every month, this idea only makes them less of a profit every month. It does not stop them from making ANY profit. PVE has experience this in the form of loot scaling and boss drop nerfing many times over. At one time i could get over 100k for a titan gem that is worth only 5k now. Its the nature of things in a game. Zkeys WILL drop in price at some time no matter how many people QQ about it. SO NO WHERE IN THE GAME DID IT EVER SAY THAT PVPERS WOULD ALWAYS BE GUARANTEED BY ANET THAT ZKEYS WOULD ALWAYS STAY AT 5K PER KEY!!!!!! So dont try that crap that it would benefit some players at the expense of others. You know, as much as i do, that is a load of shit.

So Drax, next time stick to reasoning out a debate instead of telling someone they dont know anything. I have looked at both sides of this arguement already. We all have the right to disagree with any idea suggested. Personally, id rather see the ZKeys cusomized to that account and stop all this bs QQing about the drop in prices and be done with it. Let the PVE farm their title like all the others and let the PVP figure out what to do about cash, since its now too late really to stop either side from finishing out this title.

Kawil · Mar 27, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

@OP...interesting idea but I agree that the trade-off needs to be high. Also, as for the arguments of PvE controlling Z-key prices, it can already be done with the XTH. A couple of extra accounts making picks and a person doesn't have to PvP at all to get a good amount of keys. Besides, Balth faction is also used to unlock skills which can be used on heroes....uh oh...that's PvE stuff.

draxynnic · Mar 28, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Dragonrogue,

While I did call you out by name, that wasn't intended as a personal attack. If you took it as such, I apologise. However...

Through most of your posts, you've been quite dismissive of the concerns of those who disliked the proposal, accusing them of being motivated by greed and such. I wished to point out that, whether you consider the current situation to be fair or not, those who do mix PvE and PvP - or even just play PvP, but how much do they need gold? - do have a perfectly justified reason to be wary of a suggestion that is essentially going to negatively affect them for the benefit of those who prefer a different style of play (in this case, pure PvE). They also have an equally justified expectation that ANet will consider their opinion on any decision that is made.

For most intents and purposes, I am a pure PvE player - between being in Australia (with the associated timezone and latency issues), being a member of a fairly small guild, and in short never really having had a good opportunity to 'break in' to the PvP side, I tend to restrict PvP to holiday events (and even then only between event quests). I, personally, would be quite happy to be able to convert my excess skill points to zkeys - either to sell or use myself, I don't really care. Either would be good.

But I can also see the validity of the concerns of those opposed. While it may not be your intent, you seem to be on a crusade for zkeys or nothing. I, on the other hand... would kinda like to see something, even if it isn't something that can be directly or indirectly converted into money. (Which is why I like the non-rep shrine blessings as an alternate proposal. As you've said, they hardly ever get used - it's not like they're a significant gold sink in the economy. They're more a case of something fun and special you can use when you get favour... that is sadly neglected because, well, it isn't worth forking out 25-150 gold for.)

As for the monopoly: No. The zkey market isn't controlled by a monopoly. It may be dominated by one group of players over another, but I somehow doubt there was ever a cabal of PvPers controlling the market, and even if there was it's not like they can do anything to stop another PvPer who wants to sell a little lower to offload their keys faster. The price of zkeys, like most things, is set purely by their perceived value in the minds of players - what buyers are willing to pay and what sellers are willing to accept.

doomfodder · Apr 01, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

lets say I had 2000 unused SP in my "bank" at the moment (not unrealistic for veteran players), & ANET let me trade 1SP = 1 Zkey. I would instantly have 2000 zkeys

& I'd now be @ 10% of the title. WOW... 10%...

Now lets also say that if this happened, the price of Zkeys dropped to aound 1k, then I'd still need 18000 zkeys = 1.8 mil to buy my title... & THAT seems easily doable for the typcial veteran player that doesn't raptor or keg farm 24/7??? I presume there's only around 5% of the total GW population that has that much $ just laying around right? or is all that $ tied up in rare commodities (minipets etc.) and therefor diffcult to liquify in order to use to buy zkeys. Think that would mean a drop in price for rare commodities if super rich tried to liquify thier assets to buy zkeys?

Even if all this were to happen (which btw I support the OP 100%), why would I sell my zkeys for 1k? I wouldn't? and probably NO ONE ELSE would either, even the PvP's wouldn't, they'd use it for title too. & THAT's BAD for the economy???? what the???

On a tangential perspective... if SP for Zkey trading WAS implemented, ANET could just as easily create another $ sink in the game, they could CHARGE a 1k fee for the service to exchange SP to Zkeys. That would pull some $ out of the game... also would keep the prices of zkeys from dropping to below 1k (EVER). but still... why would U sell UR zkeys that cheap anyway? In fact, as I REALLY think about fees, I don't have enough FUNDS in assets/cash to convert all my hypothetical 2000 SP into Zkeys IF fees were charged & most veteran players don't either...

Steps_Descending · Apr 02, 2009, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

See page 5
just noticed there's a link to the post

Aside from the collector and ZKeys parts, that rohara has got a prety nice idea if you ask me... And don't tell me it will ruin anyone's game to be able to purchase 600g keys with SkillPoints. OK, OK, lets just say items above 1k cost 2 points. Best exchange rate would be 1SP=1k. but most item would be give a worst one.